Comments on: Can we turn the art of story over to the players? http://justingibbs.com/2009/05/04/can-we-turn-the-art-of-story-over-to-the-players/ Bringing a little drama to social games and interactive entertainment Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:43:26 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: justingibbs http://justingibbs.com/2009/05/04/can-we-turn-the-art-of-story-over-to-the-players/comment-page-1/#comment-861 justingibbs Wed, 03 Jun 2009 17:48:18 +0000 http://justingibbs.com/?p=1854#comment-861 Megan, I couldn't agree more. Joseph Campbell probably more than any other showed how story can be used to transmit data. How we improve on current modes of storytelling through real time story is still to be discovered however. I'm really impressed with what you and Visual Purple have been able to do though. My guess is that serious games like the ones you're building will lead the way in the development of real time story. It's about to get very interesting. Megan,

I couldn't agree more. Joseph Campbell probably more than any other showed how story can be used to transmit data. How we improve on current modes of storytelling through real time story is still to be discovered however. I'm really impressed with what you and Visual Purple have been able to do though. My guess is that serious games like the ones you're building will lead the way in the development of real time story. It's about to get very interesting.

]]> By: justingibbs http://justingibbs.com/2009/05/04/can-we-turn-the-art-of-story-over-to-the-players/comment-page-1/#comment-778 justingibbs Fri, 08 May 2009 20:10:02 +0000 http://justingibbs.com/?p=1854#comment-778 I couldn't agree more, I just wish others would see this as well. Too often those of us in Silicon Valley get caught up in the technology. We live and breath it. However for most people the latest technology is just a curiosity and the only way to pull them in is offer some great utility or story, or both. Interactive story is cool, but it has to offer a better way to tell a story or it'll be a passing fad. You don't see many <a href="http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Choose_Your_Own_Adventure" target="_blank">Choose Your Own Adventure</a> books anymore. I couldn't agree more, I just wish others would see this as well. Too often those of us in Silicon Valley get caught up in the technology. We live and breath it. However for most people the latest technology is just a curiosity and the only way to pull them in is offer some great utility or story, or both. Interactive story is cool, but it has to offer a better way to tell a story or it'll be a passing fad. You don't see many Choose Your Own Adventure books anymore.

]]> By: Megan Rutherford http://justingibbs.com/2009/05/04/can-we-turn-the-art-of-story-over-to-the-players/comment-page-1/#comment-775 Megan Rutherford Fri, 08 May 2009 16:56:01 +0000 http://justingibbs.com/?p=1854#comment-775 Great post Justin. I too believe that the power of story can drive an immersive simulation. Why do we sit on the couch and watch movies and TV programs? Because we become engaged in the storyline! Stories are richly coded with meaning and transmit data far more effectively than other mediums. Ultimately, the story is what powers successful simulations and leads the learner to further triumph. The path of the story is what should engage the learner the most! Great post Justin. I too believe that the power of story can drive an immersive simulation. Why do we sit on the couch and watch movies and TV programs? Because we become engaged in the storyline! Stories are richly coded with meaning and transmit data far more effectively than other mediums. Ultimately, the story is what powers successful simulations and leads the learner to further triumph. The path of the story is what should engage the learner the most!

]]> By: justingibbs http://justingibbs.com/2009/05/04/can-we-turn-the-art-of-story-over-to-the-players/comment-page-1/#comment-757 justingibbs Tue, 05 May 2009 21:59:44 +0000 http://justingibbs.com/?p=1854#comment-757 Yeah, most <a href="http://justingibbs.com/narrative-game/" rel="nofollow">narrative games</a> don't go beyond a traditional narrative with obstacles put in the way. Are developers just being lazy or did they find that story interactivity didn't offer much value over traditional narrative? I know Chris Klug, of <a href="http://www.cheyenneme.com/" rel="nofollow">Cheyenne Mountain Entertainment</a> said expressly, "Mention interactive fiction and they'll think you're an academic." He went on to say that developers would never let you waste time on content that might never be seen by the player. Interactive story is a tough one. And what's with the hatred of comic sans? I would switch but I use a great program <a href="http://www.balsamiq.com/" rel="nofollow">Balsamiq</a> to quickly create the diagrams and all it offers is comic sans. Yeah, most narrative games don't go beyond a traditional narrative with obstacles put in the way. Are developers just being lazy or did they find that story interactivity didn't offer much value over traditional narrative? I know Chris Klug, of Cheyenne Mountain Entertainment said expressly, "Mention interactive fiction and they'll think you're an academic." He went on to say that developers would never let you waste time on content that might never be seen by the player. Interactive story is a tough one.

And what's with the hatred of comic sans? I would switch but I use a great program Balsamiq to quickly create the diagrams and all it offers is comic sans.

]]> By: justingibbs http://justingibbs.com/2009/05/04/can-we-turn-the-art-of-story-over-to-the-players/comment-page-1/#comment-764 justingibbs Tue, 05 May 2009 21:19:20 +0000 http://justingibbs.com/?p=1854#comment-764 While at the gym I began to question if I'm still looking at this from too technical of a perspective - at least where interactive story is concerned. As you point out, we commonly know the outcome of a story but continue to watch. We go to super hero movies knowing that they can't lose but get caught up in it, find ourselves on the edge of our seats. Adding the interactivity in the storyline might seem logically to not offer much bang for the buck - I can take path A or B but end up at pretty much the same place. Even if you make it thousand of possibilities I question if the creator can really make the outcomes that different. But then again it might just work. Knowing how a story will turn out doesn't kill the entertainment value, heck we even watch them over and over and still get chills. I just need to keep plugging away on my <a href="http:\/\/justingibbs.com\/projects\/" target="_blank">dating sim</a>, see first hand what is possible. <a href="http:\/\/www.renpy.org\/wiki\/renpy\/Home_Page" target="_blank">Ren'Py</a> doesn't offer any crazy features so it kind of forces you to concentrate on the basics - which in this case can be great. While at the gym I began to question if I'm still looking at this from too technical of a perspective – at least where interactive story is concerned. As you point out, we commonly know the outcome of a story but continue to watch. We go to super hero movies knowing that they can't lose but get caught up in it, find ourselves on the edge of our seats. Adding the interactivity in the storyline might seem logically to not offer much bang for the buck – I can take path A or B but end up at pretty much the same place. Even if you make it thousand of possibilities I question if the creator can really make the outcomes that different. But then again it might just work. Knowing how a story will turn out doesn't kill the entertainment value, heck we even watch them over and over and still get chills. I just need to keep plugging away on my dating sim, see first hand what is possible. Ren'Py doesn't offer any crazy features so it kind of forces you to concentrate on the basics – which in this case can be great.

]]> By: justingibbs http://justingibbs.com/2009/05/04/can-we-turn-the-art-of-story-over-to-the-players/comment-page-1/#comment-763 justingibbs Tue, 05 May 2009 19:22:17 +0000 http://justingibbs.com/?p=1854#comment-763 While at the gym I began to question if I'm still looking at this from too technical of a perspective - at least where interactive story is concerned. As you point out, we commonly know the outcome of a story but continue to watch. We go to super hero movies knowing that they can't lose but get caught up in it, find ourselves on the edge of our seats. Adding the interactivity in the storyline might seem logically to not offer much bang for the buck - I can take path A or B but end up at pretty much the same place. Even if you make it thousand of possibilities I question if the creator can really make the outcomes that different. But then again it might just work. Knowing how a story will turn out doesn't kill the entertainment value, heck we even watch them over and over and still get chills. I just need to keep plugging away on my <a href="http:\/\/justingibbs.com\/projects\/" target="_blank">dating sim</a>, see first hand what is possible. <a href="http:\/\/www.renpy.org\/wiki\/renpy\/Home_Page" target="_blank">Ren'Py</a> doesn't offer any crazy features so it kind of forces you to concentrate on the basics - which in this case can be great. While at the gym I began to question if I'm still looking at this from too technical of a perspective – at least where interactive story is concerned. As you point out, we commonly know the outcome of a story but continue to watch. We go to super hero movies knowing that they can't lose but get caught up in it, find ourselves on the edge of our seats. Adding the interactivity in the storyline might seem logically to not offer much bang for the buck – I can take path A or B but end up at pretty much the same place. Even if you make it thousand of possibilities I question if the creator can really make the outcomes that different. But then again it might just work. Knowing how a story will turn out doesn't kill the entertainment value, heck we even watch them over and over and still get chills. I just need to keep plugging away on my dating sim, see first hand what is possible. Ren'Py doesn't offer any crazy features so it kind of forces you to concentrate on the basics – which in this case can be great.

]]> By: justingibbs http://justingibbs.com/2009/05/04/can-we-turn-the-art-of-story-over-to-the-players/comment-page-1/#comment-762 justingibbs Tue, 05 May 2009 19:13:27 +0000 http://justingibbs.com/?p=1854#comment-762 I tried to create the diagrams from the perspective of a writer and incorporating a storyline. It's possible to create interactive story using a different model but for me that gets too technical - I simply can't wrap my head around it. As a consumer or player I can but as a writer it seems impossible to create. Chris Crawford built <a href="http:\/\/www.storytron.com\/" target="_blank">Storytron</a> using a different model and I have no idea how I would weave a story into that. It seems to be more of a <a href="http:\/\/justingibbs.com\/story-world\/" target="_blank">storyworld</a> than story but I haven't had that much experience with it. Speaking of Chris Crawford however, he has a great piece on a lot of what you brought up - <a href="http:\/\/www.erasmatazz.com\/library\/JCGD_Volume_7\/Flawed_Methods.html" target="_blank">Flawed Methods</a> I tried to create the diagrams from the perspective of a writer and incorporating a storyline. It's possible to create interactive story using a different model but for me that gets too technical – I simply can't wrap my head around it. As a consumer or player I can but as a writer it seems impossible to create. Chris Crawford built Storytron using a different model and I have no idea how I would weave a story into that. It seems to be more of a storyworld than story but I haven't had that much experience with it.

Speaking of Chris Crawford however, he has a great piece on a lot of what you brought up – Flawed Methods

]]> By: Rick http://justingibbs.com/2009/05/04/can-we-turn-the-art-of-story-over-to-the-players/comment-page-1/#comment-760 Rick Tue, 05 May 2009 15:13:50 +0000 http://justingibbs.com/?p=1854#comment-760 One other thought: When I watch CSI, I often think I know what is going to happen, know the plot twist (especially with the famous actors usually playing the villains) - but I watch it because it might turn out differently. Usually it is disappointing to find out when it does turn out the way I thought, I expected to be surprised/amazed by an even more clever plot twist. I imagine this is even worse when you /know/ its going to turn out that way because you control the events. I think that is one of the other major issues with interactive storytelling that comes up by determining the level of control the player has over the story (or the actual storytelling). As for Comic Sans: <a href="http://vimeo.com/1994310" target="_blank">http://vimeo.com/1994310</a> ;-) One other thought: When I watch CSI, I often think I know what is going to happen, know the plot twist (especially with the famous actors usually playing the villains) – but I watch it because it might turn out differently. Usually it is disappointing to find out when it does turn out the way I thought, I expected to be surprised/amazed by an even more clever plot twist. I imagine this is even worse when you /know/ its going to turn out that way because you control the events. I think that is one of the other major issues with interactive storytelling that comes up by determining the level of control the player has over the story (or the actual storytelling).

As for Comic Sans: http://vimeo.com/1994310 ;-)

]]> By: Rick http://justingibbs.com/2009/05/04/can-we-turn-the-art-of-story-over-to-the-players/comment-page-1/#comment-761 Rick Tue, 05 May 2009 15:13:40 +0000 http://justingibbs.com/?p=1854#comment-761 Example: If event A destroys the island, this removes possibility 'B' 'C' and 'D' in the second stage if they were all dependant on something on that same island - and all their logical followups as real options. So in order to have 5 choices in 5 stages, you actually need 5x5x5x5x5 options = 3000 events over 5 stages, not 25. Writing out 3000 possible events is a big difference from writing 25 events - which would probably need an acedemic to even keep track of this interactive story :) - though as a reader it would be a seamless story, but how would you know if this was actually a better story than the one designed by a professional writer. Example: If event A destroys the island, this removes possibility 'B' 'C' and 'D' in the second stage if they were all dependant on something on that same island – and all their logical followups as real options. So in order to have 5 choices in 5 stages, you actually need 5×5x5×5x5 options = 3000 events over 5 stages, not 25.

Writing out 3000 possible events is a big difference from writing 25 events – which would probably need an acedemic to even keep track of this interactive story :) – though as a reader it would be a seamless story, but how would you know if this was actually a better story than the one designed by a professional writer.

]]> By: Rick http://justingibbs.com/2009/05/04/can-we-turn-the-art-of-story-over-to-the-players/comment-page-1/#comment-759 Rick Tue, 05 May 2009 15:13:20 +0000 http://justingibbs.com/?p=1854#comment-759 Looking back, I think one of the big problems with handing the narrative to players in the way you might be thinking of is how your vizualisation is 'wrong' (not really, but I get the feeling from your search for a true interactive story, you need a different model). Your visualisation makes it look like, at every stage the player would have 5 choices, making 25 events to pick from throughout the story - which seems like a fair amount of control over a story, and an overseeable amount of writing. But thats not really the case, as the story still has to progress in a linear way in order for this to be true. At ever stage things pretty much have to have a static ending condition on order to allow the next series of events to 'click' into place in the story. Looking back, I think one of the big problems with handing the narrative to players in the way you might be thinking of is how your vizualisation is 'wrong' (not really, but I get the feeling from your search for a true interactive story, you need a different model).

Your visualisation makes it look like, at every stage the player would have 5 choices, making 25 events to pick from throughout the story – which seems like a fair amount of control over a story, and an overseeable amount of writing. But thats not really the case, as the story still has to progress in a linear way in order for this to be true. At ever stage things pretty much have to have a static ending condition on order to allow the next series of events to 'click' into place in the story.

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